Mike Pouraryan
The grand jury investigating Wichita abortion provider George Tiller adjourned Wednesday afternoon without a criminal indictment.
In case you don't know Dr. Tiller is one of the few doctors in America who will provide late term abortions. Earlier this year groups of anti-choice wingnuts filed enough petitions to get Tiller investigated by the courts on whether or not he violated the state's abortion laws. Perhaps Obama needs to visit his mother's homestate and get a feel of the late term abortion laws they hold.
The law says that after 22 weeks of pregnancy, doctors must first determine if a fetus can survive outside the womb. If a fetus is determined viable, then an abortion can be performed only if two independent doctors determine that carrying the pregnancy to term would cause "substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function."
The Kansas Supreme Court and the U.S. Supreme Court have interpreted that to include the mental health of the woman.
The Kansas Supreme Court and the U.S. Supreme Court have interpreted that to include the mental health of the woman.
Emphasis mine.
Though Tiller certainly is not in the clear yet. He has 19 misdemeanor charges still being held against him that have yet to come up. But hopefully they will be taken care of easily enough and Dr Tiller can return to helping women. Including those with mental distress.
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Comment by RubySoho
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I understand they are necessary sometimes and I've heard this guys name floating around a bit so I'll have to do a little more reading on him.
Comment by Summer Minor
Comment by Anonymous
Summer -- If you don't feel comfortable with these (truly abominable) late term abortions, why on earth could you feel "happy that such an option is available..."
Large scale, small scale ... it doesn't matter. If we don't want to see slavery in Dafur, for example, why on earth would anyone want to see it practiced anywhere else?
A social wrong and a social injustice in one instance is just as wrong as in another and in another place.
Tiller is evil on a massive scale. This man and his chief backer, the thoroughly self-discredited "catholic" governor of Kansas ,deserve to be politcially castigated from every corner of the earth for the stands they have taken and deeds he has committed.
Comment by Josie
My question about this would be- if the mental problem was there from the start, why wait this long for the procedure? I'm not sure if you've ever been pregnant, but there are some really extreme emotions you can go through during that time. The hormones do things to you that you can't explain. As a woman, I don't like to ever think of women as irrational, but I have to admit that I was certainly irrational at points during the pregnancies. For some women under the right circumstances, it can be similar to PP depression. I would hate for someone to get a late term abortion because of emotional problems they are going through as a direct result of the pregnancy itself. I'm sure that most practitioners would not take it lightly, but there are always those that abuse systems.
Comment by Summer Minor
A man that works to help women, a man that would be shot and go back to work the next day, a man that puts his well being on the line every day he gets out of bed because of the nutjobs who think killing doctors is great is not the evil one here.
Comment by Summer Minor
For one thing Dr. Tiller requires extensive psychological counseling before he agrees to perform. Secondly, just because you felt a certain way during pregnancy does not give you the right to say how every single other woman feels during pregnancy. Some may be in denile until it is too late, or maybe in such mental states that they do not understand, or hide the pregnancy. Some may have thought they were OK but as things became more real how they really felt became more apparent. Or a thousand other issues.
Not to mention that not every late term abortion is for mental health. Late term abortions are such a rare occurrence, 1.4% of all abortions, and those done for mental health issues are only a small portion of those.
We are not dealing with roving hordes of pregnant women feeling a little blue and deciding to get an abortion at 8 months. Though the Conservatives like to paint this picture to demonize doctors such as Tiller the facts simply do not support this.
And even if they were? Guess what, not your body. End of story.
Comment by RubySoho
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I also read that often the women are distraught as they actually wanted to proceed with the pregnancy but the health risks are just too great.
Apparently, he sometimes performs quick "funeral" services for the grieving mother. He doesn't sound like a monster to me.
I absolutely could not do his job but I do realise it is needed, the fact that he was not indicted indicates that he is operating well within the bounds of the law and the law clearly states that late term abortions are only permitted when carrying the pregnancy to term would be dangerous.
Thanks Summer.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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i said this to S.L. a couple of weeks ago:
partial birth abortions account for 0.3% of cases, some are due to severe cases of a common fetal condition called hydrocephalus (fluid on the babies brain) where they would have died anyway and never gained consciousness, or to remove a fetus that has already died or is badly malformed or with serious genetic defect, not always just for the health of the mother
you are right in saying that ceasarian sections are another option in third trimester, but with ceasarians comes a greater risk of complications and a higher mortality rate of the mother
third trimester abortions should be limited to cases involving the potential death or serious disability of the woman, if doctors are performing late abortions where the fetus is healthy and the mother is not in danger they are doing the wrong thing
Really Long Link
from Dr Tillers website
In order to offer you an appointment, we require that a physician refer you to our center. In addition, we need your genetic counselor or doctor to provide us with gestational and diagnostic information regarding your pregnancy. Over the past twenty-five years, we have had experience with pregnancy terminations in such situations as anencephaly, Trisomy 13, 18, and 21, polycystic kidney disease, spina bifida, hydrocephalus, Potter's syndrome, lethal dwarfism, holoprosencephaly, anterior and posterior encephalocele, non-immune hydrops, and a variety of other very significant abnormalities.
http://www.drtiller.com/
you cannot elect to have an abortion after viability, you need sound medical reasons . . . viability is generally at 21 weeks and only 1% of abortions are performed after this time
Dr Tiller should be investigated if there are complaints and if he is doing nothing wrong he wont have a problem
conversely if the complaints are found to be fabricated nuisance complaints the perpetrators should also be dealt with within the bounds of the law
Comment by Summer Minor
You're right, however there were not complaints. Several anti-abortion groups petitioned to have him indicted in hopes of squashing one of only two clinics in the US that provides late term abortions. He was investigated and the charges were tossed out. He operated within the state law of Kansas, which states that the mental health of the mother is just as important as the physical health.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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i dont quite understand the american system, did they form a petition based on no evidence or complaints at all?
Comment by Summer Minor
In a statement released by the Sedgwick County District Attorney's Office, the grand jury said:
"After six months of conducting an investigation that included hearing extensive witness testimony, reviewing volumes of documents and medical records of patients of Women's Health Care Services (Tiller's clinic), this Grand Jury has not found sufficient evidence to bring an indictment on any crime related to the abortion laws."
Basically a bunch of anti-choicers screamed "He's killing babies!" loud enough that some anti-choicers in the courthouse drug him in. Unfortunately the law in Kansas is fairly liberal about this, shocking from such a conservative state, so they were forced to let it go.
He got some misdemeanor charges for supposedly getting second opinions from doctors in his pocket, but personally I think that's just an attempt to find anything to shut him down. They're so mad they have sworn to elect someone more anti-choice into office who would be willing to ignore state law to "save the babies".
Comment by RubySoho
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if that happens, that's a really sad indication of how little society values women.
Comment by Summer Minor
Not that I'm jaded or anything.
Comment by Josie
My concern is that a system that allows third term abortions for mental stress would be abused. I cringe to type this, but I think Obama and I might agree there (I've shed a tear).
I suppose I'm not a feminist in the traditional sense, but I am a practical person. Hormones can do insane things to women's minds. That is an absolute fact and pretending it doesn't happen isn't productive either.
You have me with you before life could survive, but after that point I think it is a terrible thing no matter how small a percentage it is. No- it is not my body, but it is the duty of every American to ensure that "life" is protected as guaranteed in the DOI. If a life could survive outside the womb and is causing no physical distress or danger to the mother, than I'm sorry, but I would would classify the ending of that life as murder.
Comment by Summer Minor
The laws are already in place right now in Kansas, one of the few places allowing late term abortions, that a woman's mental health is just as important as her physical health in reguards to abortions. Is this being abused? No. Are women rushing to get abortions for "stress"? No.
You and Obama are claiming that women are waking up a little blue and rushing off to get an abortion because the Mall was closed that day. That is absolutely not what is happening, and not what any doctor would do. Dr Tiller, one of the rare few who performs this, offers extensive counseling before performing abortions. This isn't mother's getting abortions for stress, this is denying women that you don't know in situations that you may never understand an abortion for reasons that they, their doctor, and the state of Kansas all agree is necessary because of some perceived notion that a pregnant woman is just being hormonal.
Do you not understand the amount of counseling, evaluation, and time spent talking with other parents in the support groups Dr. Tiller puts together that these women must undergo before being considered for an abortion? Are you claiming that these doctors and counselors are so stupid that they can't tell the difference between hormones and psychological distress?
Passing off these women's needs as just being hormonal pregnant women isn't being practical. It's being dismissive.
Comment by Josie
I'm not talking about baby blues here, I'm talking about the serious mental problems that hormones can create. Look at women like Andrea Yates who kill their babies becaues of PPD and tell me that hormones are not a serious issue. PPD is even classified as insanity in some defense cases.
I'll say again, that once life can survive on its own, I think it becomes less about protecting a woman's rights and more about protecting the life of another living being.
I agree with you on alot of issues, but I think this is one we will have to agree to disagree on.
Comment by Don Robison